First off, in regards to my "inadequecies", I'm sorry you can't recognize a tongue in cheek joke when you see one. I would have thought the phrase "bull in a china shop" would have been a sufficiant indicator. I am fully capable of working with animals (from a photography standpoint) on their own turf as it were, when I have suitable specimens available (more on that in a bit). However, I will also state that instead of waiting in a hide and taking a pic of someone munching on bait or of their tails running back into the woods, I'd rather get shots such as that I've already displayed. As I've already said, I'm not trying to "document nature" here...I take pretty pictures of critters and I can do that just as easily in zoos or nature centers. Either way, you believe what you wish to believe.
"this anti hunting stuff is what i have come to expect from the mouths of those who get all of their wildlife info from the animal planet and disney channel"
Sorry pally-boy...I don't have cable. I've never seen animal planet (beyond passing while my wife was going thru her chemo) and I didn't even know there was a Disney Channel... I do however work at a nature center and have been, for all intensive purposes, a "naturalist" for over 15 years now...you probably don't think that counts either. While I honestly know of no way to measure this, I have a sneakin suspician that I've probably spent just as many, if not considerably more, hours around wildlife and in the woods as you have both as a nature lover and a perpetual student of science (including holistic healing for both humans and animals). In your mind are "hunters" the only people who know anything about wildlife? Be honest now...
"i have to admit it does take a tremendous amount of courage, skill and daring to drive down to the zoo...that is as long as it is locked up where it can't hurt you."
No more courage I guess then it must take to attack something from several yards away with a high powered projectile weapon where you also can't get hurt eh? I'll stick with my original comments...I have to despise anyone who's cowardly enough to own a firearm.
While I don't know why I'm aplogizing for this, I'm sorry that you take offence to my enjoyment of zoo's and nature centers and that I'm able to produce decent images from said institutions. I'm sure there are at least a few people out there who understand why I am so utterly offended by hunters. Do you really believe there are also that many people out there who are truly offended by my going to the zoo to take pictures of some very beautiful creatures? You wanna talk about an argument that don't make sense there bud...
Further, I have yet to see you post a single intimate close up, shot in the wild, of -any- of the animals that I've previously mentioned. Please enlighten me over your prowess with a camera...at the risk of sounding less then humble, show me your pictures and how they compair with mine. Please, show us the pictures you apparently took on your last trip to Africa (you must have been there since you're cracking so much on the pics I took at the zoo right?).
Also just for the official record, as an animal care volunteer, I am INSIDE THE CAGE with the animals I work with (it's a little hard to feed them and clean up after them from outside the cage isn't it?). The animals I work directly with, just to name a few includ foxes, skunks, deer and several raptors including 3 red tailed hawks, a variety of owls and a bald eagle. I've also worked to a small degree with two cougars and a pair of lion cubs. No, I don't work one on one with any adult African Lions or Cheeta's (yet), but again, let's see the pics you took while on safari! Post em dude! You've made accusations here...let's see how you support them. Put up or shut up dude!
"all the while professing your expert knowledge of what "sport consists of " while eating your steaks, porkchops ,...."
Well, again here I will reiderate what I said. Yes I do eat meat. Yes, I have eaten game as well. No I have -never- eaten anything taken from the wild. Again everything I've ever eaten (or prepaired for others) had come from animals that were raised specifically for use as food...nothing more and nothing less. Further more and again as I've already stated, for something to be "sport" there must be an equal chance of both sides loosing. I really don't know how else one can define it. Exactly what do you stand to loose sitting in a hide or in a tree a couple of hundred yards off with you're laser scoped riffle?
Yes, I do wear a leather belt...I'll give you that one at least. But...
"overpriced japanese import"
I own a Plymouth...a Grand Caravan if you must know. Bought it used for $1300 to haul band and camping equipment around. You accuse other's of being presumptious...interesting.
"or your expensive leather sofa,"
Boy, you musta been peepin' in the wrong house. My sofa's made from 100% geniun virgin polyesters and in fact was given to my wife and I by a friend.
"...living vicariously through others and professing to everyone that will listen , with your righteously indignant palaver, how wonderful you are! "
Huh?????? Alright, maybe I'm just over-tired, but that one didn't make any sense...
"meanwhile thinking you are completely hiding your dirty little secret that you only partake of these fruits as long as someone else catches and kills the animals for you for you "
I will admit that I"ve never gone to a slaughter house and killed my own cow just so I could have a steak...or a chicken or a pig. In fact I'll even admit that I couldn't/wouldn't do it...and this -is- something that I will have to come to terms with some day (without the help of people like yourself). However I will reiterate, to me there is a -VERY- big difference between animals that were raised in captivity for use specifically as food and animals living in the wild. Again (and again) I have -NEVER- eaten one single creature that was taken from it's natural habitat...never. You apparently seem to think that killing a cow in a slaughter house and terrorizing & destroying a deer (or Bald Eagle) in the wild are the same thing...they're not. As I've already said, I understand that humans are omnivours and require meat in our diets...my issue is with people who kill for fun, for "sport", for tradition...people who kill without nessacity.
"hunters are the reason you have the ability ot actually see and photograph animals in the wild, that is if you ever actually tried"
I guess you didn't look at too of those pictures of mine there and you most certainly must not have read both of my posts in full. Please...I beg you...come out here to the North Coast of Ohio and show me just exactly where you think the lemurs and african lions and cheetas and all the other animals I mentioned are. Please...enlighten me!!!!!!!!!!!! If you really believe there are white handed gibbon's or colubos monkey's somewhere around my area...dude, you really should study your geography. Beyond that I have no idea how you think hunters play any kind of role in ones ability to photograph creatures in the wild.
"how about giving us a list of the conservation organizations each of you donated to, or supported in someother fashion last year. (jim, zoos don't count as they do not have anything to do with conservation)"
First off here, I'm sorry that you are under the impression that zoo's don't have anything to do with conservation...you sir are either horribly ignorant or horribly misinformed. Go to http:www.clemetzoo.com and do a search under "conservation"...or for that matter just google "zoos conservation". ..you just might learn something (but I doubt it...you're quite apparently not that open minded). Zoo's aren't just swatches of land with cages any more. With that said, yes I am a member of the Cleveland Zoological Society (and very proudly so!) as well as a member of the ASPCA and HSUS. Additionally I do volunteer work for Lake Erie Nature & Science Center as well as Erie Shore's Humane Society and have made various donations over the years to various other animal based organizations.
I would like to add that Lake Erie Nature & Science Center is one of the few animal rehab facilities in Ohio...there are only two up here on the North Coast. We take in many animals that have been injured...often hit buy cars and trucks, etc.. We also take in animals who have been shot or caught in traps...i.e. we have to clean up the mess you so-called hunters make when you don't get a clean shot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Maybe instead of trying to talk us into joining your world, you should come out here and spend a couple of months in mine...you wanna "walk the walk" as you so eloquently put it, then walk on over here and spend 6 months as a rehab volunteer. You'd be amazed at just how much damage hunters can do (very often without giving it a second though).....it's truly disgusting.
"these individuals believe god gifted them with the devine power to be the only ones that have any knowledge to decide what is GOOD for everyone!"
If you believe nothing else I say, then believe this...you do -NOT- want to get into a theological debate with me (anyone who thinks these posts are long, hasn't seen me go on a tiraid over religion! LOL!!!). With that said, you also seem to think that you have "the God given right to destroy life" so where do you have room to talk either way?
Addionally, you want facts? How many species of this planet have been decimated or hunted to extinction by people such as yourself? How much damage has been done to this planet by people such as yourself who are under the impression that they can damage and destroy as they please? Here's another fact for you...terror. Let me chase you thru the woods with a loaded rifle and a scope and you come back and tell me how "sporting" it was? Animals feel terror...that is a fact. Again since you apparently didn't read my entire post, it's a proven fact that animals -do- think- and they -are- self aware. Again it's also a proven fact that there are very humane ways to control animal populations without the need for hunters.
Sorry there Terry, but your arguments are just as week (if not considerably more so) and just as based on emotion. You clearly took offence to my comments (and perhaps that of others) and felt the need to get hostile...if that's not emotional, I don't know what is. I've also noticed that you've chosen to only address my posts selectively and made generalizations about the little you did choose to comment on. It's clear that you didn't read, or at least didn't understand a great deal of what I wrote, let alone -why- I wrote it. I think the destruction of life in the wild for no other purpose then amusment is -wrong-. Yes, many of my "opinons" are based on emotion, I will certainly admit that freely. Killing is of course a moral judgement and morality in itself is quite subjective. You either think it's wrong or you don't. To me, killing without nessacity is wrong...I'm sorry that you're too narrow minded to see that. You claim to support conservation efforts, so one can only assume that you choose to kill selectively. To me this is no different then the little boy who asks "Can I do it until I need glasses?" Do you think it's "ok" to hunt American Bald Eagles? Do you think the slaughter of endangered whales is a good thing? What about the black rhino's? Wanna go out and pop one of those suckers too? If your answer is "yes", then you are simply a sicker individual then I thought and I strongly urge you to seek help. If not, then I have to ask how can you possibly justify killing deer or other creatures? Seems hypocritical to me... life is life and it's all precious no matter how much people like yourself seem to need to destroy it. In this day and age in the US at least, people don't need to kill...again most of the people who chose to do so do it because they like it (and most can't even be adult enough to admit that!). With that, I also find it most interesting that you chose not to address my comments about the enjoyment that many hunters take in killing.
You started out your post by saying "it does not take any flaming to counter them, just facts" and you ended it with "of course, i suspect you are not interested in facts" To me your post came off as a flame and presented very few "facts". You did however provide a great deal of ignorance and mis-information such as your theory on zoo's and conservation, not to mention your intimate knowledge of my living room, my television viewing habits and the vehicle I drive. Excuse me? You consider these to be "facts" how???
I'm sorry but the few actual arguments you've provided here are for the most part irrational at best and many are presumtious and quite arrogant. You certainly didn't take everything I (and others) have said into account here and you seem to have made something of an effort of addressing specific points. You made many accusations, but honestly as my mamma used to say, "people who live in glass houses, shouldn't throw stones".
The only relivant point of yours that I did not cover was your reference to the gov webpage...because the link you provided doesn't work. However for as much as you claim hunters do fur "us" (intentional Fruedian slip ther folks!), does the harm and damage that they've done and continue to do actually justify the means? Can you honestly believe that for a moment??? Just as one single example, as was debated earlier, yes, there are several "prey" species that are over-populated. Why? Because hunters just like yourself, killed off the natural preditors. To people like yourself, the answer is more killing???? Again I say two wrongs don't make a right. You want another fact? The planet Earth in conjunction with Mother Nature did a very find job of taking care of things long before humans and hunters with high powered weapons were around. We can't correct a mistake by repeating that mistake.
Lastly, if you choose to believe that killing is "alright" and if you feel justified in doing so, that is of course your choice, but don't expect others...particularly people such as myself who've already stated that we feel unnessacary killing is wrong...don't expect us to sway to your opinions, when you can't convey them in a way that you expect others too.
With all of this said, I'm going to retire from this debate. It's quite clear that you are unable to take anything that I wrote in the spirit in which it was meant and you've made it quite clear there is nothing that you can learn from me. I'm also quite sure there isn't a single thing that you can say that will sway my opinion either. I believe you as a hunter are -wrong-. I think you are supporting a cause (i.e. hunting or more specifically sports hunting) that is -wrong-. It's my opinion that killing, at least killing for pleasure and without nessacity is wrong and that people who that have such a flagrent disgregard for life and who choose to kill in this manner with such an adement attitude as yours are sick, dispicable and offensive. Nough said...
(my apologies to the good people who have been patient enough to endure this debate).