commentary...tech tips:big images from digital cameras

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commentary...tech tips:big images from digital cameras

Postby Walczak Photo » Sun Apr 29, 2007 8:58 am

Hey Folks,
Since these forums don't seem to have a place to write comments about articles posted in OP, this seemed the most appropriate place to post this particular commentary.

I'm writting this in regards to the "Tech Tips" article written by George D. Lepp titled "Big Images From Digital Cameras". For those who may not have read this article, in his first Q&A, his writter is asking about doing 24x36 prints from an 8 megapixel camera. It seems that someone at a lab told this person "that my digital file wasn’t large enough to produce prints of acceptable quality in this size". In Mr. Lepp's response he wrote, "...I don’t know why they should have refused to print your enlargements on the basis of file size.". I had a very similar experience and hence wish to post some speculation on this particular topic for the benefit of other OP readers.

Sometime back I was at one of the big photo store chains (Ritz camera, who I no longer do business with) and I wanted to do some 8x10's from my 5.1 Megapixel Sony H1 and was told pretty much the same thing as Mr. Lepp's reader..."you can't do enlargments that big from a 5 megapixel camera". This individual went so far as to tell me that their equipment wouldn't even acknowledge the file (or something very similar). I told him how far I had drove to get to the store (well over 20 miles since I don't have any photo processing places near me) and to please give it a try anyways. To the lab tech's apparent astonishment, the file printed with wonderful, crystal clear quality. This individual didn't say another word to me the rest of the time I was in the store.

After having some time to chew on this and after some other really bad experiences with this particular photo place I've come to some conclusions that I believe may answer the question of "why" Mr. Lepp's reader couldn't get his images printed that I would like to share with anyone interested. First and foremost I have to say that just because someone wears a lab coat and has the title "lab technician" doesn't mean said person actually knows what they are doing! Obviously I don't know where Mr. Lepp's reader took his pictures to be printed, but it's been my experience that in many of the larger photo store chains (including some of the web based print companies) that their lab techs are very often little more then photo enthuesiats working for around minimum wage and that many of these places go thru techs the way most restaurants go thru line cooks (aka very high turn over rate of employees). There is little or no extensive training beyond how to turn the equipment on and off. I've ran into managers of these places that don't even know -if- their equipment is properly calibrated, let alone how that calibration process is done! Very simply put, just because someone works for a big photo company doesn't actually mean that they are a "pro" in this field.

Further, it's been my experience that many of these so-called lab tech's also do double duty working at the sales counter (and vice-versa)...i.e. they are sales people. Think about it...which is going to make them a higher commision...printing an 8x10 picture for $5 or selling you a $1000 or more worth of new equipment? Sound kind of like used car salesmen? You betcha! Sadly there -are- may crooked sales people out there. In one instance I came across a couple of the proverbial "little old ladys" who were looking to buy a digital camera. I -knew- these ladys were simply looking for a small P&S to take pictures of their grandkids and such...birthday parties, holidays, etc., so they could email them to friends and family. Most likely, they would have been quite happy with any decent little $150 P&S. However, by the time the sales guy got thru with them, he had them convinced that they had to spend -at least- $15,000 in high end photo equipment just to print a 4x6 of little Johnny's graduation! My advice to anyone here is this; never take a so-called "pro" at face value. As always, the rule "buyer beware" really applies here.

Secondly and perhaps equally important is resolution issues. The details of Mr. Lepp's reader's experience weren't revealed in the article, but something that I learned a long time ago was that there is a very big difference between an 8 megapixel image at 300 dpi and an 8 megapixel image at 72 dpi. Even with all the advantages of shooting in RAW, many people still shoot pictures using the JPEG format (hey, it's a great space saver!). Many, if not most digital cameras by default set the dpi for JPEGs at 72 dpi and very simply this is insufficiant for large prints (or even smaller prints in many cases). While I could be wrong here, I believe this could very well be the case with Mr. Lepp's reader. The reader took an 8 megapixel image shot (or finished) in JPEG at 72 dpi to a lab. An inept or dishonest lab tech put the 72 dpi file into their machine and what do ya know..."we can't print that". Of all the nuances in the digital realm of photography, resolution has to be one of the most misunderstood. For many people this really isn't that big of an issue; for people who go out with their digicam, shoot a bunch of pics at a birthday party or family gathering and then take their memory card into the 1 Hour Photo Lab for a bunch of 4x6's, it's not a big deal. However, if your a little more serious about photography and do like larger prints for framing, then it's very worth while to learn the in's and out's of digital processing.

Mr. Lepp is absolutly correct when he stated, "I can assure you that if your image is of good quality to start with, you can make a 24x36-inch print from your camera that will be better than if the image was scanned from a 35mm slide" and while he did touch lightly on issues such as interpolation and such, he never mentioned the issue of dpi when it comes to prints. I think in this case he put too much emphasis on "image quality" and not enough on the mechanics of the process. It should go without saying that if you want a nice sharp 24x36 blow up, then the original image has to be sharp as well...and that applies to digital, film (slide or print), etc.. I don't think the reader's question/issue was in regards to "quality". Even a poor quality, blurry, out of focus picture from an 8 megapixel camera can be printed at the size mentioned...you may not be happy with the results since we're talking about a poor image to begin with, but it can be done. I believe Mr. Lepp's comments about quality are somewhat rehtorical and didn't really address the real issue(s) of his reader here; a blurry, poorly focused, unsharp image is going to look pretty bad regardless of whether the original image came from digital or film (most people wouldn't dream of doing a 24x36 of a blurry image shot with film...why should they consider the same simply because the image was shot digital?). Indeed the issue of how sharp an image is, regardless of medium is up to the photographer and his equipment. However the issue of getting such images printed and/or blown up becomes slightly more complex in the digital realm. Very simply there is more to it then simply taking your "digital film" to the lab for prints...at least if you want decent results :-).


This is, as usual, just my $.02 worth, but I honestly believe that Mr. Lepp did OP readers something of a dis-service with this article, especially in light of how many people do shoot digital now a days and that it required comment. To use an analogy, it seems to me that Mr. Lepp's reader was asking "How does this car run?" and Mr. Lepp as the saleman went on more about the shiny finish of the paint and the leather bucket seats.

Bright Blessings to all,
Jim
Walczak Photo
 
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Postby Bonish Photo » Fri May 18, 2007 9:16 am

Back when I was just starting out in Photography, before Digital was even on the market yet, I worked at a Ritz Camera so I could get discounts on film and processing. It was a learning process and not a very rewarding job, but it was a way for me to work off my expensive camera hobby and really got me some equipment I couldnt have otherwise afforded.

As you stated, we would be thrown from the sales floor to the developing lab depending on the schedule of the store. We were told to always upsell customers and even had incentives to sell certain cameras that had a higher profit ratio for the company. This is done with almost any store you walk in and is why I would never allow a salesperson to dictate my purchase. Some of the sales people werent even photographers, and didnt know the first thing about photography, they just knew how to sell things and came for a paycheck. Personally I dont like to buy things from most camera shops because when you go in, the sales people act like they know everything, and talk down on you as if you're always an amateur.

If you can find a camera shop that has a knowledgeable staff, then by all means give them all your business, but shop around and make sure you find a shop that doesnt push you in a direction you didnt want to go.

When it comes to developing pictures. My first digital camera was a Minolta DiMage 5 megapixel. I've blown up many images from that camera past 24x36 and most could look through a magnafying glass at the crispness.

Now I shoot with an old 1D that has only a 4.2 megapixel image sensor. I've done some advertising work for a few companies that blew the image up to banner size with no distortion. One shot of a model posed on a bike was blown up to 5' wide by 8 ' tall and looks fantastic.

Now what bothers me is I sent an image to one of the online print shops to have it printed 24x36 and they told me my image wasnt able to be printed that large?? Why can a local print lab print the same size image bigger than life size, but another lab cant print an image smaller? I believe its because like Jim said, the tech doesnt know what he/she is doing?

Dont always trust or believe the Lab Techs, they dont always know what they're talking about. When you go to buy a piece of equipment, dont let the sales people talk you up to the next model. Do your research before you even go to the store, and only go to the store when you know what YOU want.

Pat
http://www.everymilesamemory.com
Pat Bonish
Every Miles A Memory
Bonish Photo
Low-Key Hideaway - Birding Paradise
If you want to Edit any of my images to show various options, feel free to do so!
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Postby hw771230 » Fri May 18, 2007 2:11 pm

I agree totally,

Some of my best 8 x 10 prints are from my old 3.2mp Fuji, and I could have gone bigger if that is what I wanted. I am looking forward to trying some large prints from my Nikon. I know it will do fantastically at 11 x 14, and I want to try bigger.

On the matter of camera shops. I have only had good experiences when I went in and got what I already knew what I wanted. Otherwise I have gone away emtyhanded, confused, and not happy. This I beleive is because sales people are in the mode of selling products, instead of listening to customers and providing what they want. Many times I have gone into shops, asked for a specific item and promptly handed something else. This does not improve customer confidence, or sales in my opinion.

I know I am mostly repeating, but I felt like blowing off some steam,

Caleb
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Postby Walczak Photo » Sun May 20, 2007 11:22 am

Pat...you've made some interesting poinsts I'd like to reiterate...
"but it was a way for me to work off my expensive camera hobby"
Hey, nothing wrong with that at all! That's actually why I started delivering pizza's for a while...think about it...a job where they not only pay you to drive around smoking cigs and listening to the radio all night, but where they give you free pizza to boot??? The only real reason I gave it up is simply because it was tearing up the car! LOL!!!


"we would be thrown from the sales floor to the developing lab depending on the schedule of the store. We were told to always upsell customers and even had incentives to sell certain cameras that had a higher profit ratio for the company. This is done with almost any store you walk in and is why I would never allow a salesperson to dictate my purchase."

I absolutly agree with you and this problem certainly isn't limited to photography stores. I worked in aftermarket retail auto parts for some time and we were trained to do the same thing...as well as merchandising techniques, impulse items and "suggestive selling". Fortunatly though we were also trained in regards to the products we sold and most of the sales people really did know their stuff. I think this is where the photography places fall really short...and perhaps why this issue irks me so much. It really bugs me when some pinhead just out of high school is standing there trying to tell me I need such and such when I know damn well I don't! LOL!!! I think part of it is simply "corporate mentality"...you're not supposed to actually listen to the customers and sell them what they need, you're supposed to sell them the most expensive merchandise that you think they can afford. It's really annoying...

With that said, I should also mention that I was got a written warning for telling a customer not to buy a product. Basically this guy was one of my regular customers and he came in one day looking at fuel addatives. He said his car was running a little rough even though he had just tuned it up and wanted something to "smooth things out" a little. I asked him what kind of gas he was using and of course, he was using the cheapest stuff he could find, so I told him before he bought a bottle of anything to try putting some "good" gas in his car the next time he filled up...something like Sunoco 94 Ultra as that was probably his problem...the cheap gas. Unfortunatly I had a district manager standing one ilse over. This was one of those guys that wore really expensive suits, but honestly didn't know the difference between a Ford 302 and a Chevy 305...a real spam head to be a DM of an autoparts chain to say the least. He wrote me up for refusing to sell my customer a can of STP fuel treatment that was on sale that week. It actually turned into a really big too-doo...I told him flat out that I wasn't going to lie to my customers just to make a fast buck and he said fine, he'd just keep writting me up until I was gone. I said fine and that I'd see him in court for unfair labor practices and bring the whole company before the BBB and just for the sake of proving my point, called the companies law offices and informed them of the same thing (yea...I'm a shit head when my ideology is questioned! LOL). Although the write up stayed in my file, I managed to get the suit written up as well and the issue of my sales technique was never brought up again (LOL!). Incidentally, the customer came back a week later and thanked me for the info on the fuel...said his car hadn't ran this good since it was new :-).

Anyways, I think this situation a really great example of "the buyer beware" and as I said originally, just because someone wears a lab coat and has a name tag, doesn't actually mean they know anything about the products they're selling or working with. I'm with you in that I don't usually listen to the sales person (in fact I rather enjoy pissing them off when I can prove them wrong on something! LOL!), but the sad thing is that many people -do- trust sales people implicitly and a lot of sales people don't understand that they have a responsibility to the public. Most big corporation's don't really want "informed consumers", they want ignorant people with really deep pockets. It's been my experience that in most large companies, the only thing that matters is the "bottom line" or profit margin. It's amazing though how many of those companies seem to forget that the best way to improve that profit margin is with great customer service...without the customers, there's no company to begin with. I really don't get it... (sigh....)

"Now what bothers me is I sent an image to one of the online print shops to have it printed 24x36 and they told me my image wasnt able to be printed that large?? Why can a local print lab print the same size image bigger than life size, but another lab cant print an image smaller? I believe its because like Jim said, the tech doesnt know what he/she is doing? "

Ok, I could be quite wrong here, but I get the impression that with all the automated equipment now a days (when it comes to photo processing) that there's some kind of evaluative algorthym running on a lot of the equipment. I think that it reads the output resolution and makes some pre-programmed assumptions. Using Ritz as an example again, to test my theory, I took two images in for prints...basically it was the exact same image, taken with the exact same camera (a 4 megapixel Olympus C-4000). The -only- difference between the two files was the output resolution...one was set to 300 dpi and the other was set to the default 72 dpi. The 72 dpi image wouldn't print...the kiosk software came up with an error stating "the resolution was too low". Now a decent lab tech should have spotted this, pulled the image up on their system, switched the dpi to 300 (or even 150 depending on print size) and all would have been fine and dandy. The yahoo at Ritz though asked me what kind of camera I shot the pic with (again even though the second pic had printed) and when I told him a 4 mp Olympus, proceeded to tell me again that that camera wasn't capable of doing 8x10's. Ya should have seen the look on the idiot's face when I told him the other picture was from not only the exact same camera, but the exact same file! LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! When I asked him why one picture would print and the other wouldn't, he just shrugged his shoulders and walked away from me. -BUSTED-! LOL!!!

I don't know if this was the case with your situation or not, but I'd check the output DPI on that image you sent in...I'm guessing the equipment at the place you sent it too probably just gave the tech a similar error and the tech didn't know any better. For images I plan to print, be it on the high end Fuji processing equipment, a color Xerox machine or even an inkjet, I always set my output resolution to at least 300 dpi (in fact now that I'm shooting RAW, I have Adobe Camera Raw setup to default to 300 dpi).

Okies...I've rambled enough for one post...like Caleb said, just blowing off some steam :-).

Bright Blessings,
Jim
Walczak Photo
 
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Postby Bonish Photo » Mon May 21, 2007 2:42 pm

That's funny that you said you got written up, because I got pulled off the sales floor for basically the same thing. Not that i minded, I wanted towork inthe lab to learn the processing part, and they always put me on the floor cause they were short staffed.

When ever people would come in and just want an inexpensive Point & Shoot there used to be this little Olympus that was fully automatic, could fit in your pocket and was right around $100. It was really a great steal and I used to go through one a year, just cause I always kept one in my pocket and beat the crap out of them.

The managers wanted me to upsell the customers and I would say "No", they just want a cheap/inexpensive camera to take pictures of the grandkids. I also had a good repore with some of the customers as I would just sit and talk with them for a long time reather then try and sell them stuff. I usually ended up selling them something, but it was something they wanted, not something I needed to sell them to make extra money.

When my wife and I owned our restaurant, we had the same mentality and our business boomed cause ofour very lax pushyness. Not like walking into an Applebee's and being pushed the steak that they have to get rid of.

Like I said, dont go into a store looking for advice. Go in when you have already done your research and just need to make a purchase.

Pat
http://www.everymilesamemory.com
Pat Bonish
Every Miles A Memory
Bonish Photo
Low-Key Hideaway - Birding Paradise
If you want to Edit any of my images to show various options, feel free to do so!
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